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Hola folks,

This week we are going to talk about one film and one film only. And that film is called Father of Flies. I mentioned it briefly in an older “upcoming horror movies” post, in which I was VERY excited to give it a watch. Admittedly, this film has all the qualities I look for in a good horror flick. The trailer was so ambiguous that I honestly had no idea what it was actually about. And while sometimes this tactic may sway some away from a film. It also had enough trailer scares to make me feel like Father of Flies could be a diamond in the rough. 

However, after viewing, I came away with a mixed reaction. On the one hand, it had a few quality jump scares, was shot well, and exuded a perpetual foreboding that permeates the entire tiny setting. But on the other hand, even watching the full film did nothing to erode the vagueness of the plot. In fact, this may be the first film I’ve watched that didn’t really have one. Father of Flies seems to amble on in some ominous direction but with no clear reason for heading there. Instead, the film relies on its uncertainty in the hopes of keeping the viewer in place for a long-awaited big reveal.  

The movie dances on the psychological and horror borderline as we move through the new normal of a family unit that no longer has its matriarch in the picture. The father struggles to acclimate his two children to a life without their birth mother while also bringing his new girlfriend into the home. And it is quite clear from the get-go that she doesn’t like kids. But as we begin to paint the portrait of this struggling family, strange things begin to happen around the house. And the reason for why these things begin in the first place… I’ll leave that up to you since I haven’t the faintest.  

Perhaps the biggest gripe I have with Father of Flies is the almost haphazard way it strings together events from past and present. I won’t give anything away but once we are catapulted into act three, it certainly begs the question of where we are in time. The seemingly blatant disregard for any plot, combined with this disorienting scene order does more to detract from the film overall.

But I also don’t want to speak too disparagingly of the movie. Director Ben Charles Edwards took a risk in propelling his film forward by pure action as opposed to some overarching end goal. And while it didn’t exactly work for me, other critics have said they enjoyed the fresh take on plot (or lack thereof). And it is not without its moments of true terror. Several scenes in the young boy’s bedroom were especially suspenseful and super creepy. And if you’re a constant reader of this blog, you know that all I really need are some good jump scares to be happy. 

Father of flies is one of those films that almost demands a second watch. It’s got all the trappings of a solid horror flick. And I believe that it comes down to preference as far as whether this will be a film you keep going back to or if it falls into the “that was fun but forgettable” bucket. Either way, it’s definitely worth a watch and at the very least, you will be scared. 

Anywho, that’s going to do it for me this week folks! Again, I apologize for the sporadic postings but Covid is currently making the rounds through my family. My wife had it, my daughter had it and now I have it. My hope is to be able to post more regularly in the coming weeks but for now, you’re just going to have to bear with me. And we are still interviewing for season two of The Grave! So if you or someone you know has a great ghost story, please send them my way. We’ve already had some great interviews but the more we have the better! As always, thanks for reading, and do stay tuned for some more creepy content.

❤

Josh

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Hola folks!

Today I wanted to take a quick departure from our regularly scheduled movie reviews to dip our spooky little toes into the waters of YouTube once again! My current life schedule hasn’t permitted me the time to view as many horror flicks as I would like. However, that has not impeded my never-ending search for scary stuff. In a previous post I wrote about the channel known as Nuke’s Top 5. And in this post, I want to bring to your attention a few videos he included in a recent compilation that I believe will be of interest to both the believers and the skeptics. So, without further adieu, let’s get into the scary stuff!

If you aren’t familiar with Nuke’s channel, he posts a top five or top ten scary ghost videos pretty much every week. These videos are comprised of viewer submitted videos as well as videos pulled from various ghost hunters and teams. And while not every video is mind blowing or wildly terrifying, every once in a while… Nuke finds some footage which is really quite compelling. In my previous presentation of Nuke’s channel, I pulled a few clips from several of his posts. But for this video, he saved me the time and strung the videos together for me, one right after the other!

For the purpose of today’s post, we will be focusing on numbers 3, 2 and 1 of the below video:

I was admittedly very excited at having three quality clips in a row since (for the most part) there’s usually one super intriguing video per post. I say that in part so that you don’t assume I’ve become so lazy that I’m just grabbing any video idea I can find and throwing it up here for the sake of getting an article up. I hope most of you know by now that I take horror very seriously and really do try to curate each post with only the most creepy stuff. With that said, we are going to take each clip individually and I’ll explain why I like them and also why I believe them to either be legitimate or why it may be a hoax. But as Nuke regularly says, “I’ll leave it up to you to decide.”

One more brief note before we begin, if you’re wondering why I believe I may be qualified for a task like this, I am not only a horror enthusiast at night, but I am also a video editor/producer by day. So while I want all of these videos to be real, I am not so naive as to not understand when something is too good to be true. And while it can be damn near impossible to tell the difference between the real deal and a fake without seeing the original file, if there is something that seems off from an editing standpoint, I’ll be sure to mention it. So now that’s out of the way, let’s dig in!

Starting at clip number three, we are introduced to Jen Berbari. She, her wife and their daughter recently moved into a large farmhouse. But as any seasoned horror viewer might guess, soon after the move and renovations, things took a turn for the worse… She begins to hear strange noises and knocks around the house, seeing strange figures in and around the home and even finds her daughter seemingly in a trance one night. But it all comes to a head when she captures two shadow figures that lurk within the house.

Now, I like this clip for several reasons and believe her story to not only be true, but SO menacing. Apart from what seem to me like genuine reactions to everything going on, and the downright eerie encounters she’s been having, she is actually looking for help. It’s not at all apparent to me that she is having any fun in her current situation. The fact that she is in the process of trying to get help and rid her home of whatever entities appear to be there is telling. Also, the fact that her wife and daughter now stay in the city leaving Jen home alone can’t be very enjoyable for her either. Sure, one could argue she’s been getting a fair amount of views for these videos, but I’m not convinced that that is the reason she’s shared her story. I believe the documentation of these events is an honest attempt to (at the very least) get some clarity as to what the hell is going on. You can head on over to Jen’s Tiktok page to see some more creepy videos and get a better idea of what she’s been dealing with. 

In clip number two, we take a trip on over to Japan where there is an allegedly haunted house that a man hung himself in years ago. After hearing of the scary events that have taken place at the residence since the man’s passing, a ghost hunter decided to rent it out and capture any evidence he could. And of course, he may have bitten off a little more than he could chew…

This clip is a little more of the same in the sense that a lot of videos showcase doors opening and closing. But what interested me most about this clip was the shadow figure that appears for a split second and then disappears just before the night vision turns on. This, to me, indicates that this could be an intelligent haunting as opposed to a residual one. This simply means that the spirit can think for itself and move around freely whereas the residual haunting is more like a spirit trapped in a repetitive loop. There isn’t much deviation and is likely oblivious to its surroundings. I say this because it almost seems as though the spirit is aware of the cameras and doesn’t want to be seen by them (at least in the night vision mode). 

I will say, this could very well have all been staged, but without the original footage, we simply have to take it for what it is. And I for one would like to think that what’s going on here has some validity to it. You can check out more videos like this on the 4th Wall YouTube channel.

And finally, we arrive in Indonesia for clip number one. I will say here that this could be one of those videos that is too good to be true. But I will also tell you why I (and Nuke) think this would have been hard to manipulate (at least after the fact). In this clip, a guy is investigating an old decrepit hospital where a nurse allegedly hung herself. The guy hears some noises and seess some strange figures in the darkness. But the most startling event that occurs is the capturing of a woman in a nurse’s uniform hanging from the roof of the building. We can only see from her mid-torso down, but it’s pretty startling nonetheless. 

Now, as far as editing the nurse in after it was filmed, well that is all but impossible since the guy was live-streaming the experience and his viewers saw the legs in the moment. However, could someone have rigged a pair of legs and a dress in a nearby tree or some stable section of the roof? Of course. Is that a likely scenario given what we can see in the video? That’s a little harder to determine and will likely remain up to the viewer to decide… 

Anywho, that’s going to do it for me this week folks. I hope you liked what you saw and I implore all of you to watch and subscribe to Nuke’s channel if you enjoy scary stuff. Sometimes, his videos really do make my jaw drop. As I’ve said before, good horror can be found almost anywhere these days. And you bet your boots I’m going to do my damndest to find it! Thanks for reading and stay tuned for more creepy content. 

❤ 

Josh

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Hola folks!

Upon further reflection, I realize that my last couple of posts have been fairly critical of the genre I and so many of you love. And I’m sure there are some of you who disagree with me entirely as far as my current stance on the whole “horror scene”. So in an effort to not only look to the horizon of horror but to keep those of you who may now dislike me reading, I wanted to drop three upcoming films here that I hope will not only be a boon to my present downcast outlook on the subject, but will also perk up the ears and eyebrows of the most seasoned horror enthusiast. 

And I am going to try my damndest to not discuss films that we all know are coming out. Big names such as The Black Phone and the new Insidious installment, for example. For this post, I am going to focus on films that may have slipped past your radar. So without further adieu, let’s get into my picks for three upcoming horror films that I pray we’ll all enjoy…

The first flick I want to bring up is an A24 production simply called, Men. Simply put, this film is about a woman who goes on vacation alone after the death of her ex-husband. But soon after her solo adventure begins… Well, she notices someone or something is apparently stalking her. From here on out, what starts off as an ominous sense of dread apparently turns into a full fledged nightmare. 

I am into this little ditty for a couple reasons, the first being that I have been a big fan of Jessie Buckley ever since I saw her in Chernobyl. And her counterpart in this film, Rory Kinnear, also has some tremendous acting chops. Thus, I can confidently say the film won’t suffer in that department. It’s also directed by Alex Garland (Ex Machina, Annihilation) and looks to be shot beautifully. And finally, Men seems like it will have a nice blend of both psychological and palpable horror, and for that I am quite excited. You can all expect this to be released in theaters May 20th, 2022.

The next flick up is also due out in May and is called, The Twin. This bad boy follows an American family that moves to Finland after the death of one of their sons. After moving in, the surviving son (who is, of course, the deceased son’s twin brother) lets his parents know that he is being contacted by his dead sibling. 

This one intrigues me because there is obviously something cult-ish going on but I am intrigued as to what the split will be between the secret society and any actual paranormal happenings… This seems like one of those films where I come in with high expectations but leave defeated because the trailer isn’t actually what the movie was about at all. But for now, that remains to be seen! This guy comes out on Shudder May, 6th 2022.

And the final bit of horror cinema I want to bring to your attention is also premiering on Shudder and is known as, The Cellar. A family of four moves into a new home (somewhere in Europe) and leaves their daughter and son home alone for the night. While away, their daughter goes missing and her last known whereabouts were… you guessed it, the cellar. Mother and father must then confront an ancient evil that is tied to their basement. 

Okay… so I have to admit that this already has some negative reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. But they actually just made me want to watch this film even more! Most of the reviews say something along the lines of “if you like generic haunted house horror, then this is a film for you.” Well, guess what couch critics… I do! So here’s to hoping that The Cellar doesn’t try to ascend to much greater heights. And you can catch it in theaters and on Shudder on April 15th, 2022.

Alrighty, so that is going to do it for me this week, but before I go… I do just want to mention one other film that there is little to nothing about… It’s the upcoming M. Night Shyamalan film called, Knock at the Cabin. Apart from some cryptic Twitter post from the director himself, we don’t know much at all about this movie. And that’s how I’m going to leave it. But figured I put it on your radar in case you want to do some digging and fill me in!

Anywho, I’d say I’ll talk to ya’ll next week but I never make a promise I can’t keep. Stay tuned for more creepy content and keep in mind, we are interviewing for season two of my podcast. So if you or someone you know has a scary paranormal story, I want to hear from you!

❤

Josh 

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Hello ladies and gents!

I hope everyone is acclimating to one of the scarier parts of the year… daylight savings time. To be perfectly frank with all of you, I’m still in a mild horror depression and my recent watches have done nothing to dissuade of my previous opinion. In fact, they have continued to confirm my prior hypothesis on prioritizing attempted depth of character and story in lieu of actual frights. “It’s not the demons out there but the ones that live inside all of us,” type of messaging. 

Anywho, I’ll spare you all another long tirad and also say that despite the first two flicks on this list being flops for me, the third film was VERY good. Albeit being a little over a year old at this point, it nonetheless gives me hope for some quality cinema to come. So without further adieu, let’s talk about some “scary” movies…

I’m going to start off with the most recent of the three in the form of a Shudder film called, Slapface. Now, I do want to preface here that I love Shudder. I think they have some of the best horror movies in one place. And they’re originals are usually pretty good as well. I say that to say that the highly touted Slapface did not impress. The film follows two brothers adapting to life after the death of their parents in a car accident. While the older brother struggles to play both parent and sibling, the younger brother seeks out contact with a witch that supposedly lives in a nearby abandoned building. 

Well needless to say he finds her and the two strike up a very strange relationship. However, their companionship turns sinister when the witch kills the young boy’s best friend. And soon after this incident, the body count begins to pile up in a rather unbelievable way. As usual, I won’t give away any real spoilers so I’ll just leave you with my final thoughts… 

Slapface had good intentions. But these were corrupted by mediocre acting, some rather glaring plot holes and most importantly, a lack of actual terror. While the witch is not pretty to look at, she’s not altogether terrifying. She is also presented as more of a human with some special powers and a maternal, but also deadly, instinct. Which is fine if done well like it was in Mama (loved that film by the way). But unfortunately it wasn’t and it didn’t work for me.

And the last thing I will say is that the underlying theme of abuse coupled with the aspect of loss can play very well in horror. But in Slapface the agenda is pushed too hard to where it goes past obvious and into a space where the blatant angles on these issues crush what could have been a quality scary movie. 

The next film on our list is the underwater haunted house flick known as, The Deep House. I mean… if this isn’t the epitome of what I’m talking about in the decline of horror then I don’t know what is! It’s literally a haunted house at the bottom of a lake. Why did it need to be at the bottom of a lake!?!? The short and narrow of it is a couple abroad in Europe stumble upon the legend of a submerged house that’s perfectly preserved under a lake. But of course, once they dive down and enter this watery abode they soon find a dark secret inside… 

I could give you more but that’s really all you need. There is nothing new or exciting about this film apart from the half-baked idea to place the house underwater. I suppose one could argue the divers running out of oxygen combined with the claustrophobic feel of the home adds an element of dread but apart from a couple jump scares (which I love… when done right) this film fell short of the mark for me. 

Again, my biggest gripe is that this didn’t have to be filmed underwater. I think that was a concept that hadn’t been done before and the studio said, “Well that’s a new one, let’s go for it!” The diving masks made it so that you can’t really see the characters’ faces and something is lost in not fully watching the emotion that arises in certain instances. This could have been a much scarier, much more interesting film had they just stuck to the old haunted house in the woods plot and not tried to be so outside the box. 

And the final film I will drop in here was in fact a very good horror movie AND allowed for some allegorical subtext about living within a fringe group and the personal and inherited traumas that coincide. The Vigil takes place in a Hasidic neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY. A young man accepts an offer from his former rabbi to watch over the body of a recently deceased member of the community. But once inside the home, things start to go wrong for him very quickly. 

Now, this film worked for multiple reasons. The first being the setting. This was clearly a low-budget film and it is almost solely shot within the apartment of the deceased. But Writer/Director Keith Thomas does such a good job utilizing this claustrophobic space that the previous monetary fact quickly fades away. It’s dark and ominous and allows for the viewer’s mind to anticipate things that may or may not come to fruition.   

It’s well acted and unpredictable. The Vigil took the “haunted house” concept and not only made it work in a small apartment in New York, but there were points where I honestly didn’t know what was going to happen next. This poor confused young man is going through a supernatural yet self-identifying experience that works just as well on a psychological level as it does on a terror level. And that in itself is something to be applauded given the current state of this genre. 

And finally, the scares were spot on. Not overdone or thrown in wherever they could. But tastefully interjected to further the story and allow for those moments I mentioned before where something scary could happen, but it also may not… It reminded me in a shrunken down way of the Ti West film, The Innkeepers. Which If you haven’t seen, is horrifying in its own right. So all in all, well done Keith! You’re keeping my horror spirit alive. 

And that’s going to do it for me this week friends. As I’ve said, I am going to try my best to get these posts out weekly, but between life, work, and other such events, I can’t make any promises at the present moment. But I can promise I will keep you updated as best I can not only concerning these posts but where season two of The Grave is at as well! So, as always folks, thanks for reading and stay tuned for some more creepy content.

❤

Josh

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Hola folks! 

It has been a WHILE! But after some time off from the podcast and to take care of a couple personal matters, we are back to blogging! And I want to start off with a general disclaimer that having watched a bunch of horror over the last month, I have become increasingly disillusioned with the genre as a whole. And I feel like it’s me! My opinions on some of the more recent films that have come out differ widely from the popular opinion. But I also think I know why… 

Films like Malignant and The Night House were high on my watch list for several reasons. But I came away from both disappointed and also concerned. Disappointed because I had expected a different movie in both cases and concerned about the direction that horror is heading in in general. I’ve learned that allegorical films like The Power or Relic do nothing for me. And I think therein lies my gripe with the current state of horror. 

I enjoy the genre because I like the feeling of being scared. In a very similar way to how people enjoy roller coasters, horror films give me a thrill that I don’t even have to move for! But I feel that today’s films are moving in a direction that almost requires writers and directors to create an entirely new sub genre. To put this point into context, it’s like going on that roller coaster you always enjoy but midway through, the ride slows and you have to complete a rorschach test.

Horror these days seems to want to do too much with a genre that is designed to do one thing. I miss the scars damnit! Again, I am aware that I sound like an old man that refuses to accept the gradual change that occurs with anything over time. And maybe I am, but I also refuse to believe that there are no filmmakers out there who feel the way I do and will continue to make films like Hell House LLC and Insidious. 

I apologize for this longer than intended intro rant, but it is a major reason why the films I’m covering today are not the most recent. However, that takes nothing away from the fact that I, as someone who watches a lot of film, hadn’t seen any of them until a few days ago. The main thread connecting each is the found footage way in which they are shot, but apart from that, each of these films were well done in their own right. So without further adieu, let’s get to the scary stuff!

The first film I happened upon is the newest of the bunch and was strikingly original in my humble opinion. It’s called The Medium and I actually brought it up a couple of posts ago. It follows a Thai film crew who is making a documentary about a medium named Nim. Nim supposedly embodies the spirit of a local deity. But their film takes a hard right when it becomes abundantly clear that her niece, Mink, has become possessed by not just one but hundreds of evil entities. The final act is a showdown between a possessed Mink and a shaman friend of Nim’s.

I won’t give too much away here but there are a few scenes during Mink’s possession that are truly chilling. She also boils a dog alive which, the dog lover in me had to turn away from. And given that last little tidbit, this film will also work for those horror junkies out there who prefer a heaping helping of blood and gore. The Medium offers a little something for everyone and apart from that, it’s shot beautifully and captures the rustic beauty of northern Thailand. It came out in 2021 and you can catch it on Shudder and Amazon Prime Video.

The next film I want to cover is the South Korean flick, Warning: Do Not Play. This little ditty follows a young horror film director looking for inspiration for her next movie. During the process, she hears about a banned horror film that premiered at a college festival. She tracks down the student who directed it and they have a sit down to discuss the movie, but in so many ominous words and warnings he tells her to forget about it. She then breaks into his home and steals the original copy only to unlock a reel of terror and tragedy. 

Sure, the old cursed film gimmick has been done before, but given my opening statement, I don’t need anyone to reinvent the wheel. The scares are good and the story is intriguing. In fact, it unravels more like a mystery than it does an in your face horror film. It’s subtle in its own way but when you’re close to thinking, “This isn’t that scary…” it drops a fright right in your lap.I watched Warning: Do Not Play on Amazon but since it came out in 2019, I’m sure you can find it in several places. 

The final film I want to talk about is, I feel, the strongest of all the contenders on this list. It’s not often I have to turn away from the screen during a horror movie. However, The Borderlands (or Final Prayer as it’s called in America) made me do just that. This panic inducing flick follows a group of investigators from the Vatican who are sent to a church in South West England that is rumored to be the site of a miracle. However, that miracle turns out to be something entirely different than your traditional weeping statue.

The Borderlands is great for a multitude of reasons, the first being Gray Parker. Gray is the comedic counterpart to his unhumourous comrade named Deacon. Even in it’s darker moments, Gray provides some levity and keeps the other characters grounded. Horror films that utilize comedy well are few and far between so to say I was impressed by how well Robin Hill played Gray’s character says a lot. 

The second is of course the scares. If you’re a fan of jumpscares like myself, then you will enjoy this film. They are not overly done or thrown in unnecessarily but used at the exact right moment. And while I will not give any spoilers, I did say there was a scene that made me turn my head… It happens when Deacon goes back to the church by himself, at night, after the priest committs suicide. 

And finally, if you enjoy a movie with a good if not bizarre twist at the end, then this is also the one for you. The Borderlands spends a fair portion of the film in the good/evil/demons/angels realm. But there comes a point in the third act where you realize that what they are dealing with is something that sits outside the realm of traditional religious circles. However, this is not to the detriment of the film and reminded me of the end scene in A Dark Song where you’re (at least I was) baffled as to what is happening on screen. This sucker came out in 2013 so you can probably watch it almost anywhere (I caught it on Amazon Prime).  

All in all, in a time where horror has taken a dip in quality for my own personal tastes, these three flicks gave me hope that the genre will continue to provide purists like myself with unfiltered horror that isn’t diluted with too much subplot or allegory. 

I hope to get back to posting weekly like I did prior to the launch of The Grave but life is hectic at the moment! Between moving into a new house, renovating, a fifteen-month-old, a day job, the podcast and life in general, time is a rare thing to have much of these days. So, please bear with me during this turbulent time and I promise, I will post when I can. And as always, stay tuned for some more creep content… whenever that happens.

❤

Josh

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In this episode, I talk to the people I’ve spent my entire life with.

When I first ventured out into the world of podcasting, I knew two things for certain. The first was that I wanted to bring a new awareness and perhaps even an enlightenment to the realm of the paranormal. And the second was that I wanted a common thread to loosely tie my first season up in a nice little bow. So for my final episode of season one, I turn to my family to bring our story full circle. I talk about an experience my father had at our family home before talking with both my brothers and sister about their own encounters and thoughts on life beyond The Grave… There’s haunted houses, poltergeist activity, a possible female demon and the ghosts of Gettysburg.

Thank you to all who have come this far on my journey and until season two… I hope to have you all back, for some more scary stories!

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In this episode, we get two for the price of one!

Ryan Maynard is an old hometown friend of mine who reached out to me after listening to several previous episodes to discuss his own paranormal experiences. But as we discussed his own trials with the paranormal, it came to light that his then girlfriend (now fiancé) not only had her own encounters, but that she grew up in not one but two haunted houses. So, while Ryan and I talk about a ghost dog and a spirit that likes to run up stairs, Bekkah was able to paint our ghoulish portrait a little further. Her and I chat about the ghost of a little girl that would wake her up at night, shadow figures in her bathroom and even angels!

This week, we are circling back around to the tales of haunted houses that this terror train initially embarked on. 

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In this episode, I talk to a man of the cloth. 

I was put in touch with Geoff after a childhood friend reached out to tell me his dad had actually performed an exorcism. Now, as a paranormal podcast, what Geoff has to say on the subject is right up any horror enthusiast’s alley. But this episode takes on much more than just possession… Geoff and I discuss many major aspects of religion like heaven and hell, angels and demons, and God and Jesus among other topics. And whether you are someone who subscribes to the Christian ideology or are a devout atheist in the vein of the late Christopher Hitchens, this episode should have plenty for everyone. 

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In this episode, I talk with Stacy.

Stacy is a life coach and hypnotist who reached out to me after her friend Nikki Fontaine came on to discuss her paranormal experiences in episode three. Stacy has seen her fair share of hard times and has had to deal with the deaths of several members of her family. But it seems that through all of this hardship, she has been able to establish a connection with the other side… 

Stacy and I discuss the trauma she suffered in her earlier years, her transformation from makeup artist to life-coach/hypnotist, and her thoughts on how she is able to talk or “tap into” the spirit world. 

So, whether you’re in need of life advice or just came to hear some scary stuff, Stacy has something to offer everyone…

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In this episode, I talk to my friend and atheist, Jeff.

Jeff and I went to high school together and spent many hazy nights discussing religion (among other things). As stated above, Jeff is an atheist. Which simply put means that he asserts there is no God, soul, afterlife etc. Anything outside the material realm is unconvincing to him. And as I’ve progressed with this first season, I realized that the discussion has been very one-sided. And I suppose as a “paranormal podcast,” it should be. But I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge the other side of the aisle.

Jeff and I discuss his experience with a Ouija board and his subsequent feelings as to why he now believes that experience, along with all other supernatural encounters, are likely false.

Is There Life After Death? (case mentioned around 11:00)

Pam Reynolds Sees God (case mentioned around 5:00)